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Imported characters?

Superstick1Superstick1
edited 5:31PM in General discussion
I was just wondering if the game would come with imported characters later in development. Since we got like custom characters, would it be a stretch to have models imported into the game like how SFM does? Like, say Pokemon, Digimon, FNAF, whatever? 

Comments

  • jei3jei3 Moderator
    edited September 2016
    both custom characters and custom character skins are on the roadmap for a yet to be decided cycle.

    i don't think a straight import would be all that simple as the models and their rigging would need to be tweaked to work right with the custom anchoring and posing specific to this game.

    and.. from what i've seen of SFM there is sometimes still some level of 'porting' required depending on where the original model is from.
  • hornystallion81hornystallion81
    edited October 2016
    Superstick1 said: Like, say Pokemon, Digimon, FNAF, whatever? 
    These characters are copyrighted, and the licenses are horrible expensive.
    Furthermore many companies and studios(Hasbro, Nintendo, Warner Bros, DC, Disney, etc.) don't agree to sexual themed use these characters. Therefore sooner or later  the Source Filmmaker and Blender will be in trouble due to unauthorized use of copyrighted characters.  Besides that if I remember correctly, Odes & Dogson as if they has mentioned that just to use only their own characters.








  • B01CEFB01CEF
    edited 5:31PM
    hornystallion81 said: Therefore sooner or later  the Source Filmmaker and Blender will be in trouble due to unauthorized use of copyrighted characters
    That's not how it works. SFM and Blender are just tools for creating art. They aren't responsible for what people create with their programs. The Blender Foundation and Valve don't create or distribute any fan art of copyrighted material, it's all user created content. There's nothing they could do to stop someone from using their tools to infringe on IP.

    It will probably be a similar situation with this. They're obviously not going to endorse (or likely even allow) uploading interactions using copywritten characters, but they can't stop you from making them or distributing them elsewhere.
  • odesodes Administrator
    edited October 2016
    Custom characters is a bit of a nut for us to crack. The way we want to implement it is closer to an import tool rather than a character editor. There are several technical problems, but not something we couldn't handle. No, what we're worried about are the executive problems - in essence how custom characters are supposed interface with the rest of the app and cloud service. Distribution is an issue, dealing with copyright another. Even compensation to the artists is a topic we've thought about. Because the thing is - creating characters of this technical definition isn't easy. Very few people can do this. As a matter of fact, neither dogson or I could do it by ourselves. We need each other to achieve everything that is included in creating a character, and it takes so much time to do. So knowing this, we're afraid that launching an import tool would be a little bit like opening pandors box, in the sense that a shit load of poorly made models would flood everything while making the cloud increasingly expensive to run and maintain. If we however manage to attract skilled artists to create models for Yiffalicious, it would be another matter. And how could that be done? Well, monetary incentive. Open markets. Hence the thoughts about compensation. Looking at the success of Dota 2 store, it's definitely possible.

    The vision of creating a market like this has nothing to do with us wanting to earn more money. We're fully content in that regard. If we ever launch something like that (and that's a pretty big if), we'd probably take a little percentage solely to cover the expenses of running the cloud service, but the main idea behind the whole market thing is that it would drive higher and higher quality characters from talented artists, and thus increase the value and content of the app.

    Putting a system like this together though is a whole project in itself. I'm not sure we could or even should pull something like that off. Not necessarily because of the technical challenges, but because of the whole legal and maintenance side of it. If it's something I absolutely cannot stand, it's paperwork and bureaucratic bullshit. I just want to code, and I'm afraid going down this path would just make me hate this project.

    There are more issues too, like the one about compatibility. Because things are still very much in alpha, systems are changed, added and removed. We have to tweak our characters all the time to adapt them to these changing circumstances. How would that work with 3rd party models? Breaking them each time you upgrade isn't really a good thing - especially not if people have paid for them.

    All these thoughts have made us question whether or not we should even do an import tool at all. It seems like everyone else is basically making character editors instead, and that would in many ways be far, far easier to do. But I'm not sure how I feel about that. I see how much time and effort others have poured into their character editors (see for example R2CK and CHT), and I feel that these aren't anywhere near where they would need to be to encompass the creativity and versatility of the furry fandom. It's cool and all, don't get me wrong, and I think what Fek and The Cathouse Tale Team have accomplished is impressive. But given the freedom you would get with professional 3D editing tools and an import feature, it couldn't really compare. And on top of that, since each one of our characters is unique, everything we've made so far has been created to work on virtually any [prepared] model. There is no such thing as a base mesh or skeleton. Each character is unique, and since we've made our solutions this way, an import tool would be a great way to capitalize on it.

    So to sum up - we're not really sure where we stand right now, or what custom characters should even be. The loose term "custom characters" has been chosen with intention. It's gonna be a while before we see anything in regards to custom characters, because first of all we must decide what we're even supposed to do, and carefully think through the consequences of that choice.
  • AspiranteAspirante
    edited 5:31PM
    How difficult would it be to create a base mesh and skeleton and then release the specs for the models? Then have the import tool read the imported mesh and skeleton and as long as the bones and other parameters line up, to verify the import.

    If you gave the option of a base model (or perhaps a few with different dimensions [male base model small, female base model small, male base model medium, etc] that individuals could import fan created models, that would still enable the functionality. And if the models weren't hosted in the game, but only accessible by the end user downloading the model, that would prevent liability to you as well.

  • SpaceRockSpaceRock
    edited October 2016
    odes said: but I feel that these aren't anywhere near where they would need to be to encompass the creativity and versatility of the furry fandom.
    For whatever my opinion is worth, I would actually prefer a good, flushed out character editor over allowing imported characters, assuming you would have to choose between the two. Based on the options that you guys have already created for existing characters, I assume that it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to branch from creating specific characters to more of "species templates" so to say, with some of the following options:

    1) Body sliders for height, muscle, more fatness options, etc.
    2) Genital selection, perhaps different appearances or styles to choose from, or just to allow dick girls, cunt boys and herms.
    3) Certain body parts could have a range of selection, such as different shaped horns, ears, etc.
    4) Perhaps the skins, hairs and accessories could be created in such a way that they would work with a color picker?

    It just sounds like the pandora's box issues with a character importer would be a huge distraction from creating a standard character editor that could quickly add a ton of variety to scenes.

    And lastly, do these two choices have be mutually exclusive? If you do enable a way for skilled artists to add quality content, it seems an existing character editor would allow them to add a bunch of customization options to their work as well.

  • odesodes Administrator
    edited October 2016
    Aspirante said: How difficult would it be to create a base mesh and skeleton and then release the specs for the models? Then have the import tool read the imported mesh and skeleton and as long as the bones and other parameters line up, to verify the import.
    What's the point of this? The whole idea behind imported characters is that you wouldn't need a base mesh and skeleton. This seems like the worst of two worlds - all the problems that come with import (technical as well as executive), together with the limits of a base mesh/skeleton. If we have a base mesh we could just as well just create a character editor and avoid all the headaches.

    SpaceRock said: For whatever my opinion is worth, I would actually prefer a good, flushed out character editor over allowing imported characters, assuming you would have to choose between the two.
    Tbh, a character editor makes so much more sense in regards to the yiff editor and cloud service. Everything just clicks and most of the problems go away. Instead of uploading models and heavy data to the servers, we'd just upload meta data about the models and reassemble them on the client upon load. Virtually zero weight. Furthermore, we'd be in control of the quality of the models, and able to adapt them when needed to maintain compatibility. It just feels like there's such potential with a pure model importer, but at the same time it comes with so many headaches. I refuse to believe it wouldn't be possible to pull off, but I agree it's probably impractical given the alternative and circumstances.
  • jei3jei3 Moderator
    edited 5:31PM
    i would love to see what you guys could pull off with a character editor.

    i'd think some of the changes i would want to make (outside of textures) should be minor and potentially manageable with some sort of in game mesh editor. for example, changing the ear shape, swapping out genitals, and muzzle adjustments. just the ears and muzzle for example could be enough to change the fox into a dog.

    the adjust-ability in R2CK is awesome and all, but (no offense to fek) i much prefer dogson's character style.
  • DrunkDragonDrunkDragon
    edited 5:31PM
    I give you this to ponder: If, among us mear mortal users, one or more, have the skills needed to make a full model, in line with the quality that we are used to now from Dogson, then they could send screenshots to you. Thereafter, if you find the model worthy, you could purchase the full rights to the model, where you your selves can fill in the final gaps. I know that this presents a other problem: being spammed with potential modelers. But, if someone finds their way though all of this, they could in the end also earn commisions from us, for a small fee. But, just blowing out thoughts and ideas here, prodding for some golden middleground.
    But, in the end, I know I will spend hours in a built-in character editor :)
  • jei3jei3 Moderator
    edited 5:31PM
    @DrunkDragon , i think they had already considered this. waaaay back at the start of this project.
  • DrunkDragonDrunkDragon
    edited 5:31PM
    Oh? Oh! You mean 3rd party commision/ guest artist? Well, they would bring their own style to the game and that would kind of stand out. I mean for someone new, aspiring artist, that is a fan already. I have been wanting to try out the program that they use for textures, but given the limited amount of time I have, the trial would expire before I got beneath the upper layers of it. And it's freaking expensive.
  • jei3jei3 Moderator
    edited 5:31PM

    DrunkDragon said: . I have been wanting to try out the program that they use for textures,

    You're talking about Substance Painter?  I've been playing with it and found it's way easier than editing the flat UV maps. If/when they add texture modding support I'm considering the rent-to-own pricing to make it less of a hit to my wallet.
  • DrunkDragonDrunkDragon
    edited 5:31PM
    How much is that? Well, first I need to upgrade this old bucket of mine keeps crashing, showing weird faults... But that requires some cash... Just had that "Driver stopped working" again, right after starting the computer. Mostly, I'm on the forum from my phone, since, well, it's also more "private", in regards to family.
      So, it's easier than the ol' UV maps approach, eh? Nice. Well, when I have gotten my new hardware, then I might consider looking into it even more.
  • jei3jei3 Moderator
    edited 5:31PM
    DrunkDragon said: How much is that
    according to their site, it's 19.90/month, and after 8 months you own a full license for substance painter and can stop the subscription (you won't get updates though)

    DrunkDragon said: it's easier than the ol' UV maps approach, eh?
    yes! i use a tablet with it and it's much easier. you literally paint on the model. prior to learning about substance painter i would edit the flat uv maps themselves, which always led to some guess work as to how it would actually look when applied to the model, especially around seams.
  • DrunkDragonDrunkDragon
    edited 5:31PM
    Ahhh that's sweeeeet!!! Doing textures for Fallout 4 can at times be a hassle...
  • jei3jei3 Moderator
    edited 5:31PM
    DrunkDragon said: Doing textures for Fallout 4 can at times be a hassle
    yeah, i did a few textures for FO4 by editing the UVMap, i might have to go back and try doing more w/ Substance Painter.
  • baphometbaphomet
    edited 5:31PM
    odes said: So knowing this, we're afraid that launching an import tool would be a little bit like opening pandors box, in the sense that a shit load of poorly made models would flood everything while making the cloud increasingly expensive to run and maintain.
    Would it be possible long-term to have imported characters for local-run interactions only? (e.g. not distributed to the cloud) I understand the desire for maintaining QC across the yiff cloud and public face of yiffalicious but that also means really long waits between new characters per each release.

    IMO The character editor idea seems nice on paper but the usual end result is everything is a derivative of the source model's style which is kind of boring and samey. A good reason not to use it could be see in one of your examples (cathouse tale) in which pretty much every model is the same build with slight differences in minor detals + a head swap. The only way to make a character editor really work would be giving some level of sculpting and mesh painting in the actual editor itself which has to be way more work than just loading models on instantiation. That being said, if you manage to pull it off you guys might want to consider working at some AAA studio in the future because big money developers and publishers are going to be banging down your door to get to that code/skillset.
  • kurisu7885kurisu7885
    edited 5:31PM
    A nice robust character editor would be a nice middle ground I think, and since it's all your assets it might help with some of the legal problems.
  • fuwafuwanonekofuwafuwanoneko
    edited 5:31PM
    i think a character editor would be better.....since you can already do a little  editing to the existing characters using the sliders
  • HorsieHorsie
    edited August 2017
    @fuwafuwanoneko There is an in-development character editor. You can get more information about it on Patreon (even if you don't pledge). The last post about the character editor will be readable by everyone tomorrow.
    https://www.patreon.com/yiffalicious/posts
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